RobertUnferth How curious that as soon as Sinema is exposed as a supporter of our and Israel's Moslem enemies, you decide she is a good candidate after all.

You say that Jews and Arabs should live in non-violent coexistence. Go tell it to the Moslems who say that they will never live in non-violent coexistence with Israel and the Jews. Their sacred texts prohibit non-violent coexistence with any non-Moslems, and they have a special animus toward Jews.

 Abdul Ameer  RobertUnferth They might indeed be able to live in co-existence, but one must be prepared for the possibility that the party that desires all Jews be killed will win.  One item to think about is whether or not people would then be willing to have all those Jews enter the US. My experience in asking this question has been that most asked simply would want them to die. 

 Mitchell Wachtel  RobertUnferth There will always be some Moslems who do not follow the doctrines of their religion in their daily lives. These might be willing to live in peaceful co-existence with Jews. How many of them are there? Nobody really knows. Virulent anti-Semitism, and Jew-hatred from cradle to grave, is rampant throught the Arab countries surrounding Israel. Nowhere have good Moslems been able to control the religious Moslems who take the Islamic sacred doctrines seriously.

 Abdul Ameer  RobertUnferth I tell you the truth. I know many Muslims. They do not believe things that PhoenixLaw appears to accept. In fact, it's pretty much the same stuff in the US.  If you don't believe me, try this. Visit a Mosque on Friday. You will likely be quite impressed. As for finding stuff in the Qu'ran, what do you expect from a text over 1,000 years ago? Don't you think the same kind of incongruity with the present exists with our bible? Remember the tenth commandment tells you not to envy your neighbor's slaves. Now we interpret the commandment as "thou shalt not covet", a vital guide to a productive life. One question the Rabbis posed is whether or not that could be a commandment, given that it is an emotion.  That having been said, not coveting, or at least attempting to not covet, has helped me tremendously to better enjoy my life.

 Mitchell Wachtel  RobertUnferth Mitchell, you cannot possibly know what your many Muslim friends believe unless you ask them very specific questions. Now that you have read the Hamas Charter, give your friends that genocidal quotation by Muhammad and ask them what they think of it. That is a hadith which has been considered sacred by all religious Moslems for more than a thousand years.

The analogy with nasty passages from the Bible is faulty. Moslems consider the Koran to be Allah's LITERAL word, valid for all of eternity. So, the fact that it is 1400 years old is irrelevant.

 Abdul Ameer  RobertUnferth That's also true of many Christians called fundamentalists as respects the bible, not to mention Orthodox Jews. This notwithstanding, all interpret their religious texts by taking into account time & situation of the original writing. 

 phoenixlaw You are a Jew-hater because you support Hamas; you are a Jew-hater because you deny Israel's right to exist. By supporting those who call for the murder of Jews and the annihilation of Israel, you are their accomplice. Don't be coy.

 Abdul Ameer I have never denied Israel's right to exist. But on the other hand, what about Palestine's right to exist?  Don't the Palestinians have the same right to exist as a free and independent country as does Israel?  I notice you never address the settlements which are illegal under international law and have slowly been stealing Palestinian land for more than 45 years, thus denying the Palestinians the right to exist, a right you claim for Israel.

 phoenixlaw By supporting Hamas and the other Moslems who want to murder Jews and annihilate Israel, you certainly deny Israel's right to exist. You never said that you support Israel's right to exist. You are not saying it even now. If you were to support Israel's right to exist, you would be required to condemn Israel's enemies who specifrically deny Israel's right to exist, and you are not willing to do that.

The so-called "settlements" are NOT illegal under international law. In fact, international law dating back to 1922 specifically stipulates that Jews have a right to settle that land.

"Palestine", as such, does not exist, and so it has no rights at all. Whether the Arabs living in the territories of Gaza, Judea and Samaria have a right to an independent state depends on various factors, not the least of which is their willingness to live in peace with their Jewish neighbors. So far, they have shown only the desire to murder their Jewish neighbors; and they have specifically rejected living in peace with them.

 phoenixlaw  Abdul Ameer Ah, but you do indeed support Hamas. As such, you support the notion that Jews should all be killed.  I'm not saying you hate Jews, just that you seem to agree with the notion that the obtaining of world peace requires they all be killed.

 Abdul Ameer  phoenixlaw What you are missing is the real nature of PhoenixLaw & Hamas & others just like him. Listen to the voices of these folks stoning a poor woman to death. Are those not yelps of dogs receiving raw meat?  It's the ecstasy of killing for Almighty God. I swear if you went to a Mosque this Friday next, you would not meet anyone like this.  & to think a candidate for the US Congress supports individuals like this.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJR3keih6CQ

 phoenixlaw I never said simply opposing Israel means anything at all. Rather I spoke with you, provided you multiple opportunities to clarify your position & then rendered a conclusion.  Here's a question for you. Do you think there should be a law to criminalizes criticism of Mohammed (PBUH) ?  

 phoenixlaw You are NOT a Jew hater. Rather, simply from your statements it is reasonable to infer that you have no real problem with a law stating that all the Jews will be executed. Also, none of the Muslim nations complained about the 3,000,000 killed to advance the interests of God in Bangladesh? Why is that? Why is it that no objection to that event occurred while Israel/Palestine/local conflicts on behalf of the Palestinians, which consumed less than 50,000 Palestinian lives & roughly the same number of Jewish lives, generate Holocaust comparisons with amazing regularity? This perplexed me until I re read the Hamas Charter.

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

_________

Now that slogan does not say "death of the follower of Islam." It merely says death.  So death, of either the infidel, likely much more so than the Muslim is the highest goal by this non-canonical expression.

Hence, it is clear that the 3,000,000 deaths were the highest goal to these individuals.  Because Isreal does not worship death in the same way. What we Jews is thought precisely to be awful to these, to me, quite odd Muslims. 

15See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

________

If I believed as Hamas (& apparently you too) believe, the first thing I would love is to kill the Jews, who somehow failed to recognize death was of far greater value. It would be not prejudice against the Jews, but denial in my true love of death & slaughter, the essence of life, it appears. So, once again, it is vital that the Jews be killed to Hamas, not because of a lack of probity, but because of insufficient love of death.

Your thoughts?

@phoenixlaw Pathetic I might be, but unlike you, I answer questions and discuss matters. Why cannot you do so? Are you LACKING COURAGE?

 Mitchell Wachtel  phoenixlaw First, let's make no mistake - I support Palestine.  That does not mean that I hate Israel or Jews.  What I do hate are Israeli policies which have occupied and raped Palestine for the last 45 years.   More than 650,000 Israelis now live in illegal settlements built on land stolen from the Palestinians.  This is a fact verified by international law and the UN, no matter what hard-core supporters of Israel may contend.  There is no way to get around this fact, and these settlements are obviously the main road block to peace.

Secondly, you continually talk about the murder of Jews.  Since September, 2000, 126 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians, and 1,476 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israelis.  1,096 Israelis have been killed and at least 6,568 Palestinians have been killed.  No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestine, while 6,604 Palestinians are currently held by Israel, many with no charges against them.  Since 1967, no Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 28, 813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by the Israelis, and this number continues to grow almost daily.  Israel has at least 236 illegal settlements built on Palestinian land while Palestine has no illegal settlements built on Israeli land.  Given these facts, who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed in this conflict?

Concerning Hamas:  Hamas was formed in 1987 as an off-shoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and as a direct result of Israeli occupation policies in occupied Palestine.  Certainly, the Hamas charter is filled with hatred of the Jews and Israel.  Any resistance movement formed under the brutal and unfair occupation of a foreign country would be no different.   In recent years, Hamas has undergone a change in thinking and has stated several times a willingness to accept a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders, the right of return to Israel of Palestinian refugees and the recognition of East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital..  Of course, Israel has rejected these conditions, believing that Israel alone is entitled to set the conditions for any peace.  The continual assertion that Hamas' only goal is to push Israel into the sea may have been a reality 30 years ago, but Hamas through its words and actions has shown that it now is willing to accept an Israeli state in return for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders.  Obviously, Hamas has many faults and has committed atrocities and war crime-acts.  But it also needs to be remembered that the existence of Hamas is a direct result of the brutal Israeli occupation and domination Of Palestine for more than 45 years, during which time Israel has also committed many war crimes and atrocities.

 Mitchell Wachtel What is commonly called the 1967 border is, in fact, the temporary border stipulated in the 1949 armistice agreements between Israel and its Arab neighbors.  As such, it certainly represented the balance of power of the time, but does not represent it today's Middle East, in which Israel is by far the strongest power.  Nevertheless, despite this power discrepancy, Israel cannot erase this borderline.  The allure of the 1967 line is not based on legal considerations either.  The 1949 armistice agreements were temporary ceasefire lines that reflected a military, rather than legal, reality.  If anything, from the perspective of international law, Israel's borders should be those of the 1947 Partition Plan, which included significantly less land.

 phoenixlaw  You keep perpetuating the lie that "Israeli policies which have occupied and raped Palestine for the last 45 years". There certainly has been no "rape". That is absurd. In fact, before the murderous anti-Semitic intifadas, the Arabs in those territories were making great economic progress with Israel's help. As for "occupied", that is a deliberate deception on your part. Israel got those territories as a result of Arab aggression from Jordan and Egypt who had been occupying those territories illegally since 1949. Israel is required by international law to administer those territories until an agreement is reached."Palestine" as such has never existed. There was only the British Mandate of Palestine which, for your information, was for the purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland on that territory.

And, of course, you continue to lie about Hamas' genocidal intentions regarding the Jews and Israel. And, Fatah/PLO, too, refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist in any borders. When you support Hamas, you support their Jew-hatred and genocidal intentions. You are no better than they are.

 phoenixlaw It as the Arabs who flatly rejected the 1947 partition plan and made war on Israel when Israel accepted it. You are really being wicked when you now claim that Israel should go back to those lines. You are right that the 1949 lines were NOT borders, but merely ceasefire lines. The Arabs flatly rejected them as borders.

 phoenixlaw Many faults include the declaration as its slogan--Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

The Nazi also party arose out of great distress.. 

I do not talk about the murder of the Jews (please show me where I said murder & I will agree to put in the word "execute" instead), simply that Hamas & you want us to be executed by the government.  This is not murder because you & Hamas do not see it as murder but simply a means to achieve world peace.

 Notice that you completely ignore Pakistan's slaughtered persons, a perfect example of how you believe it is not murder to kill people, but that death for Allah (preferably that of the infidel) is the highest goal. Compared to the 3,000,000 persons that the Pakistani government executed to advance the interests of Almighty God (in your & Pakistan's mind), how on earth can you go on about less than 3,000 Muslims in Palestine? The reason you can is because death for Allah is for you the highest goal.

Hamas does not hate the Jews. It simply wants Jews dead because that is how one gets to world peace (in their mind). You do not hate Jews. You simply want to put a bullet into my brain as a means of reaching world peace. By not dealing with that issue, & you have had multiple opportunities to deal with it, it becomes clear that you support that slogan.  I do not begrudge your worshiping death above life. That's your choice; it is simply no longer possible for you to deny that you do. The key is that someone like you should not have any power in the Democratic party. For that would mean the Democratic party favors death over life.  

Why are you avoiding the issue of criminalizing criticism of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)? Is that because you are frightened to admit you also view amendment I as being against the will of Almighty God?

 phoenixlaw I really do not care about the 1967 war or the 1948 war. What I care about is the worship of death above life, which is what Hamas says.  What I care about is the criminalization of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), which is now being requested. What I care about are world-wide calls for my death, not out of hatred, but out of a belief that such is a way to achieve eternal happiness. Tell me something, do you think elephants were created to provision to those blessed with six dozen virgins appropriate male parts?

 phoenixlaw that should be criminalization of criticism of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), of course. I hope someone from the Democratic party is reading this. It would be very good to hear the condemnation of Hamas as an entity because of its worship of death above life from the lips of Kyrsten Sinema. Do you think she will soon say "I will strive as greatly as possible to remove from any position of power within the Democratic party anyone who supports or justifies Hamas in any way. Doing this is like being Congressman Hoffman before WWII."  Will she do this?

 Abdul Ameer He is not a Jew hater. Rather he is a believer in the same faith that Mr. Mashaal possesses, that the final days of glory require the death of the Jews. Think about it. Good day.

 Mitchell Wachtel No, Mitchell, YOU think about how someone who wants to murder Jews does not hate Jews. You are playing word games. Yes, he is a believer in the same faith that Mashaal possesses. That faith is Islam, and Islam teaches Jew-hatred. This is really not so complicated.

 Abdul Ameer You are welcome.  Part 2 of this story will look into comments made by Sinema to this group of Muslims and her lack of understanding of the threat of Jihad and the desire by many in the Muslim community in establishing Sharia Law in this country.   Or as you put it, she may very well be aware of these desires and is sympathetic to it!

 HMarques While we are exposing Sinema's anti-Semitism and treason, we should also contact her opponent, Vernon Parker, to see where he stands on the Muslim Brotherhood.

 Abdul Ameer  HMarques It is not anti-Semitism or murder. Rather is simply a desire to enact legislation that has all Jews such as myself & my family members line up against a wall before Mr. Phoenixlaw is granted the opportunity with a government issued submachine gun to blow our brains out.  Why is this? Well, there was some time ago a fellow at the US Capitol who thought a flying saucer was in the Senate Office Building library, threatening all life on earth. Naturally, that kind of emergency demands every sort of violence. Although he failed to understand that the Senate Office Building was down the street, he valiantly broke through security, shooting two guards & killing them before being stopped.  

Well, if it is dictated to you that you must kill all the Jews to achieve the ultimate peace on earth, it does follow that slaughtering us is the true sixth pillar of a religion of peace & that what is being done is not murder, but a killing at the request of God. That I do not believe Islam holds to these truths is irrelevant, especially when the Gran Mufti of Jerusalen believes them.  

Watch this video to see what I mean. It is important not to refer to their desire to have all Jews killed as murderous or against peace or anti-Semitic when to people like PhoenixLaw it is in fact the highest good.

They have every right in this country to demand such legislation. Kyrsten Sinema appears to be the only politician in America ready & willing to deliver, at least if PhoenixLaw is really one of Ms. Sinema's key supporters. In any case, here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHEOjXsgT_k 

 Abdul Ameer  HMarques I'm putting this on PDF. That way our friend cannot delete his comments.

 Mitchell Wachtel  HMarques If the desire to murder Jews and support for those who are actually murdering Jews is not anti-Semitism, what is?

 Abdul Ameer  HMarques  The deprivation from the Jew the assumption of probity. There is no indication that Jews are inherently evil in the religious formulation at question. It's just a different approach.  For most people, including all Muslims I know, the road to heaven is either paved with faith, works, or some combination; for the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem &, one gathers, PhoenixLaw, the road to heaven is paved with the blood of Jews.

 Mitchell Wachtel  Surely, you jest. There are many "formulations", that is, sacred Islamic texts, which attack the Jews. Just Google "Islam Jews" and see all that comes up. You will be shocked. The brute fact is that the sacred texts of Islam clearly call for war and subjugation and murder of Jews. That is why anti-Semitism is so furious and rampant throughout the Moslem world including the Moslem communities in America and Europe.

 Abdul Ameer I will not further argue with you, except to tell you that you are wrong. I know dozens of Muslims. It is very easy to abuse an old religion, such as Judaism or Catholicism, by taking matters out of context of scholarly understanding within the religion. Remember what has been done with the Talmud over & over & over & over again.  I know that Islam is a perfectly good faith, one that can lead to a wonderful, productive, & happy life, just as Judaism can. This will be my last post on this forum. Good day to you. May wisdom be ever your goal, for the highest act is contemplation.

 Mitchell Wachtel YOU are wrong because you are obviously ignorant about Islam.  If you can say something so preposterous like "Islam is a perfectly good faith",  despite the mountain of evidence that continues to pour in from the Moslem world, you are dangerously ignorant. You have never read the Koran or the sayings of Muhammad or any of the most respected Islamic religious authorities. I suggest you educate yourself before you make an utter fool of yourself. If reading the Koran is too much for you, then start with Robert Spencer's excellent book, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam." And, remember, you cannot achieve wisdom merely through contemplation. You must have a basis of facts first. Only then does contemplation make sense. You obviously do not have that basis.

 Abdul Ameer Yes, I agree with you 100%. Accountability should be demanded on both sides of the isle.  

 HMarques  Abdul Ameer One thing about these persons such as Mr. PheonixLaw (Ms. Sinema despite protests?) is that they always disappear when you begin asking them what they truly believe. Honest to heaven this is so? Why is that? 

 Mitchell Wachtel  Why is that? Obviously, because he does not want you to know his true beliefs. If Moslems and leftists were to reveal their true beliefs, they would be rejected by civilized people.

Thank you for sharing your insight on this issue.  You are right on the mark.  Either Sinema is naive and going along to get along with anyone in the Muslim community to further her career or she is knowingly sleeping with the enemy; Either way, we should be concerned about electing her to Congress.  Certainly it is not PC to criticize any aspect of the Muslim communities existence or intentions.  We all become "islamaphobes" to criticize any Muslim organization or Muslim in general, even if you suspect terrorists associations.  There is growing evidence that "many" muslim organizations who claim peaceful intentions, but plan not to integrate into our society but to dominate our society and ultimately shoving Sharia Law down our throats.  As Americans we need to say NO to any form of Sharia in our society.  It is not compatible with our form of a representive Republic.  There is nothing discriminating about stopping Sharia implementation.  We have to speak out against any movement towards Sharia acceptance in our courts.

 phoenixlaw The land in question has never belonged to any modern national entity, not the Ottoman Empire which lost it, nor Jordan which held it in name but not by rule. The only claim to it is held by Israel, by conquest in 1948, by Israel has shown forbearance, even toward the squatters illegally occupying it. You're of course free to stand on the side of dictators, murderers and advocates of genocide, and against the only democracy in the Middle East that guarantees freedom to all its citizens...but be sure to wash the blood from your hands.

 Ishmael_137 UN Security Council Resolution 446, adopted on March 22, 1979, among others, seems to say otherwise:

"Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem (the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights)."  The policies and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive , just and lasting peace in the Middle East."  The Israeli settlements have also been held to be in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

So, instead of just making stuff up that sounds good to fit your argument, perhaps you should learn what the reality of the situation is, based on the UN and international law.

Excuse me phoenixlaw, I think you need to review your history a little.  In 1967 a war (the 6-day war) was waged against Israel by surrounding Arab nations after Israel's neighbors (primarily the palestinians) refused any peace settlement negotiations brought to the table via the UN Assembly.  And guess what, Israel kicked ASS and defeated those who attacked and "occupied" any addtional land at that point due to "WINNING" the war.  That's what happens when you go to war and win.  The attacks have never stopped since then.  And it looks like the Arab world wants to go to war with Israel yet again.  Israel has done nothing but offer peaceful resolutions since the state of Israel was established in 1948 by the UN General Assembly in agreement with other governments.  The "palestinians" and its militant terrorists group Hamas wants nothing to do with peace, all they decry is destruction of Israel.  Israel has only defending their right to exists, defending their people by terrorists attacks by Hamas and Hezbolah, etc....

 HMarques Israel did not "win" the occupied territory.  Perhaps it is you who should review your history. It is well documented that  Israel attacked Egypt to start the 1967 war.  As to the illegal settlements that are the root of today's problems, refer to the numerous UN Resolutions on the matter.  In reality, it is Israel that does not want peace, since if there was a peace accord, their theft of Palestinian land would have to end.  Israeli leaders for the last 40 years have said as much.  Get your facts straight instead of just blatting the AIPAC-Israeli lie.

Yeah, that was called a "preemptive strike" in response to the imminent threat of attack by the neighboring states of Egypt [known then as the United Arab Republic (UAR)]...Israel was protecting its people from attacks from your people (muslims).  This kind of fighting has been going on for centuries and it has not stopped.  We see this happening NOW with the current threats of  "wiping Israel off the planet" by Iran and the on going threats of violence from the radical Islam extremists who don't recognize Israel and the jewish people no more than they respect and recognize any westerner or infidel.  I don't see anywhere in the Jewish faith where there people are taught to kill non-jews, unlike the Koran.  We "Americans" are also a target.